Balistics programs

[Lucas B.]

You'd absolutely love it Sean! We've got a full schedule in May.... WCT long range steel challenge (last year went out to 1188yds) on the 15th, then the 22nd we have the Oregon Sniper Challenge (out to 1000yds) which is a two day match. Once you try one, you'll get hooked... if only I had a little more time and money I'd go all over the country if I could. The only problem is that it's growing in popularity so fast that you have to sign up immediately or may not get in. A coupple years ago you could get in to just about any competition you want... some didn't even fill all the slots!

[tlanders]

I never answered your question - I live in Missouri. The shoot was great and I had a great time except for the rain, mud, and swirling winds. We had 22 shooters and it didn't start out too well for me. My understanding was that we were going to shoot 5 rounds each at 100 through 700 yards at 100 yard increments at cardboard human shaped targets. We all walked out in the field carrying a lot of stuff and stopped. The guy in charge said to take two shots at a 6" hanging plate, 50 pts if you hit it on the first shot and 25 points on the second. Then the next three shots were to be at the cardboard targets. I though that this was going to be easy, except for the rain and wind, I hit my 5" plate at 400+ yards at home without thinking about it. After my first shot, the spotter shouted "MISS". What? After the second shot he shouted "MISS". I was flabbergasted. I stood up and looked down range and then thought, that plate seems awfully far away for 100 yds. I asked the head guy how far away was the plate and he said "300 yards". What a way to start - I was so excited/nervous/trying to figure out what was going on that I completely blew common sense and didn't notice how far away it was!!!! From there on out I used my range finder before I shot, I didn't care what they told me, I was going to know for sure - a lesson learned the hard way. Then we walked up to the 100 yard area and shot the next 3 rounds. Then back to the 200 yard where we had to shoot from behind and between wooden 2x4s. At 300 yds the rain and wind really picked up and we had to shoot from on top of wiggly mail boxes that were about 4 ft off the ground. The wind blew rain in on my scope lens and I couldn't see the target hardly at all. I blew most of those shots. I then went back to my pickup and got some Kleenex to dry my lens and went to 400 yds where we were shooting from on top of a 4-12 singled roof. Now I could see and the roof was steady - felt good. 500 yds was in the mud behind more wood, felt good. 600 yds was challenging because we were only allowed to rest one part of the rifle on the bench, front bipod or bag, and the bench was low and we couldn't sit or let our knees hit the ground, had to stand/crouch. Guys came up with ingenious ways to support the rear of the rifle, I had my tripod so it was easier and it felt good. At 700 yds we were prone and that also felt good. I was shocked and delighted to find out I came in 5th out of 22 with a score of 323. 4th place had 324, 3rd had 327, 2nd was 343 and first was around 370. If I had only gotten that 50 point first shot which the first place guy did!!!! My overall group for all 33 shots (29 on paper - I'ld say the mailbox was where I missed 4 shots) was about 1.5" high and 2" left. Couldn't tell which shots were from which distance, so no good for ballistic development. I know your help with the BCs helped me. I need to go back with a spotter on a sunny day and develope the ballistics. Hope this wasn't too long a report.

Teddy

[tlanders]

New question. I am going to start reloading since I can't find any 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. My choices of where to check out the groups are: 1. 100 yds on a WalMart plastic card table. 2. 200 yds on a Caldwell portable varmint bench/table three leg rig. 3. 100, 200, or 300 yds prone on dirt. 4. 416 yds on my concrete bench rest. The 416 yd bench rest is solid, but there will be more wind effect. What would you do?

Teddy

[Sean P.]

This is just my opinion
But when I zero my rifle I will shot at 100 or 200 yards prone.  I am a firm believer in not using tables or benches when I shoot.  I want to know what I can do and what I cant with what I can carry on my person.  I often zero my rifle using just the bipod and or backpack.  Load development is a difference story because you need to see what the round is doing and you need to take out human error.  I have used tables and or benches to shoot at targets at 500 to 600 yards but I find that I shoot better without them.  That could just be because I don't use them but I figure why start.

[Lucas B.]

Excellent match Report Teddy. Sounds like you did very well overall. It's always a learning experience for me no matter what. Next time you will be that much better prepared. I find some matches come down more to damage control and just making sure you don't drop points (a weird way to think about it I guess). Missouri is a long ways from Washington  . I remember seeing your rifle at benchmark... I liked it! If you ever get out this way let me know.

If you want to keep things simple you can duplicate the factory ammo (I hear the load info is printed on the side of the box, if not I can get it for you). You'd most likely have the best results doing a complete load development from scratch... of the options you listed I'd go for 300yds prone, or the 416yds on the bench (If wind is a problem look more at verticle dispersion), or both (it depends on how your rifle likes to be shot, I've had rifles that loved bipods on benches and others who HAD to be planted firmly in the dirt) here's my take on load development (it's kind of a poorly written article but I can give more specifics if you have questions) http://www.shoot-farther.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page8.html

Once again... well done Teddy!

[tlanders]

I enjoyed your article Lucas and I read all of the info on Dan's OCW procedure. He uses 100 yds and you like 300 yds for this system. Maybe because at 100 yds all your bullets go through the same hole and you can't learn anything??? I am hoping that I will be able to find the time to go through the OCW development procedure this weekend - wish me luck!!!! I intend to use my bench rest front and sand bag rear for this. If at 100 to 300 yds, I'll have to use them on the ground in the prone position since I have nothing else that is steady at those distances.

Teddy

[Lucas B.]

Great... keep us posted. If you can post pics of the targets I can help you determine OCW (I'm sure you'll be able to tell anyway). One of my buddies just got done using my load development process.... he's got two different loads that'll group 1/4 MOA at 300yds with .4 grain spread in the powder charge.... that's what I mean by a good forgiving load. Obviously at 1000yds the .4 grain spread will show more dramatically.... but I don't know anyone who can't get their charge weights within .1 grain. He's always done a different load develpment technique in the past and some days his rifle would shoot well and other days not so much. He's a happy camper now... we got a team match on the 15th of this month so we got to get his drops figured.... it's comming down to the wire  .

[tlanders]

I'm going to start tonight loading 139 Scenars using H4350 and your procedures. It sounds from reading both yours and Dans procedures, I should load 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 and maybe 44 gr of H4350 and check for max pressure first. Once that is determined, then do the 0.7% to 1% increase routine starting about 7% below max. So if 43 gr is max, then I would start with 40, then 40.4, 40.8, up to 43.2 in 9 steps. Factory load is 41.9 gr  of H4350 for the 140 gr AMax bullet. I'll use your .020" jump recommendation. I would like to try Hybrid 100V - the Hodson reload book shows it produces more velocity than the H4350. Do you know anyone who has used it?

You gave me a list of BCs at different velocities for the Hornady AMax bullets. Do you have such a list for the  6.5 mm 139 gr Scenar? Thanks again for your help.

Teddy

PS Midway got some Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo in on Monday and was sold out by 7PM that same day!!!! It doesn't sound like Hornady is supporting this cartridge very well!!!!

[tlanders]

I just read this on Sniper's Hide Forum:

And in doing so it is imperative you understand this. In the last chapter we learned how to come up with a great starting point in overall length. We found where the bullet was just kissing the riflings, and we extended that position + .010”. So in experimenting with powders and ALL the below instructions we are going to do so WITH EVERY ROUND .010” JAMMED into the riflings. IF YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE & WHY- DO NOT LOAD (near) BOOK MAX, MUCH LESS OVER!!! If the load starts with the bullet jammed into the rifling with all other things being even you WILL GET significant more pressure levels. So it’s okay to find ACTUAL max (possibly beyond book max) WITH THE BULLET JAMMED. Because when we later experiment with final overall length, we may end up with the bullet seated out of the riflings, or the bullet jumping from the case into the riflings. “Jump” does not give a pressure spike like being jammed. So we can go from JAMMED (A pressure spike situation) TO JUMP because our chamber pressure will DROP.

But if a person were to experiment with max ++ loads with the bullet NOT engaging the riflings, they would ERRONEOUSLY think they found this particular rifles safe max load. And then if they decided to jam it in search for a better shooting load, with thet the associated pressure spike from being JAMMED- and that MAX or MAX PLUS load- he’ll likely lose his eyeballs, some fingers, his hearing a good portion of his face and potentially his life. Got it?

So doing the max pressure test at .020" jump is wrong? Dangerous?

Teddy

[Lucas B.]

There are more than a few load testing techniques... the one I use works very well for me. I'm not sure if you noticed this from my load development.....

"Step5) Take the best charge weights and start experimenting with seating depths and primers (although not
at the same time). It’s best to test one factor at a time. When moving the bullet closer to and into the lands
you’re going to have to pay close attention to pressures and back the load off a bit and work back up if
necessary. Don’t underestimate how much pressure can be added with changes in seating depth. The
same applies to testing primers. Now that you’re changing the load, you’ll need to check that you’re still
within an OCW. This can be done by loading several loads higher and lower and testing again. If you are not
able to get acceptable long range accuracy from your load you will need to start the process over with the
next powder on your list. If you get a good load you can move on."

..... the reason why I don't recommend starting with a bullet jammed into the lands is that you will develop a SPIKE in pressure and get pressure signs much earlier (due to the spike). Why is this not good? Because when you start with your predetermined max pressure load and check for the highest possible OCW you will be starting at a lower velocity since an artificial spike will give you pressure signs (don't take this to mean that a spike is not dangerous.... IT IS) before you've reached higher MV's that may be possible when the bullet jumps to the lands and then starts a normal pressure cycle. OCW's tend to come in "nodes" and there's usually a considerable gap between them, starting with bullets jammed into the lands could easily cause you to miss the highest velocity OCW. Most of my fully developed loads use a jump anyway.... but as I mentioned in the article I watch for pressure carefully when I test seating depth and seat closer to the lands and I also generally do this in .005" increments. There is no difference between loading hotter powder charges and looking for pressure as you go... or adjusting bullet seatting depths in reasonable increments.

If you find a load development technique that you are more comfortable with, it would be a good idea to use it. Some of the benchrest guys have some excellent load development ideas as well. I posted mine up because my buddies were impressed with my results and wanted somthing to refrence. All the feedback I've gotten has been very positive so far.


I'll get you the 139 Scenar numbers ASAP. I don't have any personal experience with the Hybrid 100v, but I would definately try it!

[tlanders]

Last night was successful. I got 40 pieces of brass prepared, weighed, checked length, deburred, checked neck wall thickness, and primed. I didn't load them or seat them until I heard from you about the distance from the rifling question. I think your method makes more sense and tonight I will load the first few to find the max pressure at a 0.020" jump and shoot them. I think I may do this in 0.5 gr increments to find the max pressure and not start as low as 39 gr, probably 40 gr since Hornady loads it at 41.9 gr with the AMAx bullet. The only thing I would be changing then is to the 139 gr Scenar bullet with it's higher BC (I think).

Teddy

[Lucas B.]

The BC nubers I give are based on the multiple BC's we ran in the Exbal program to get trajectories to match up.... between myself and my buddies we've tested allot of bullets. I can also guess based off of BC degredation of a bullet with a simular form factor. They should get you close.

139gr Lapua Scenar

.600 @ 2850 fps and above
.585 between 2850 and 2400 fps
.579 between 2400 and 2000 fps
.560 @ 2000 and below

[tlanders]

Thank you very much Lucas, you've been an incredible help.

Teddy

[tlanders]

I loaded 7 cases from 40.0 gr to 44.0 gr of H4350 last night with the Scenars at 0.023" jump and shot them at 100 yds. No signs of high pressure in any of them. Should I load some higher than 44 gr? The Hodson book says that 40.5 gr is the max and produces close to 60,000 psi?? The factory ammo has 41.9 gr of H4350!!! The 40.0, 40.5, 42.5 and 44.0 shells all hit within 1/2" of each other. The other three were a little over 1" apart. Does this mean the "nodes" I am looking for will probably be in the 40, 42, and 44 gr ranges and not in the 41 and 43?

Tonight I will load up the OCW loads and tomorrow will be fun. Should I do 41 to 44.5 and ignor the 40 gr area because of the lower velocity? Will I burn out my barrel sooner if the 44+ loads are the best?

Teddy

[Lucas B.]

You're probably ok stopping at 44gr (the primer will be your fist sign of pressure, it can be hard to tell depending on how much experience you have). If you pay attention it would be safet to continue testing higher but it may be advisable to go in .2gr increments from there up.

Your OCW would be easier to determine from 300yds since POI shifts are more noticable... If you can post pics of the targets it may be easier to tell where the "nodes" are. Some nodes are broader than others. If you are struggeling to see where they are it may be easier with .2gr steps in charge weights (at .5gr steps you are looking for at least two consecutive carge weights with a very simular POI). Keep in mind the nodes will be in consecutive charge weights.

With your description of how the charges gouped together it sounds like there is a good node between 40gr and 40.5gr... if the MV's at this charge weight are good you may try loading from 39.6 to 40.8 in .2gr steps. Then figure out where the middle of you node is... then play with seating depth to see where the bullets like to be seated. Once you figure out the propper seating depth, load in .2gr increments... a coupple hotter and a coupple colder to make sure your still in the middle of a node... if you're not, adjust the charge weights again untill you are. Watch for pressure again as you seat closer to the lands. One of my buddies uses the 139gr Scenar and he's got it jumping .015" and it's grouping in the .3's at 300yds (for 3 to 5 shots) he's done a few BR comps with it.